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Open Discussion: Feelings Arguments

Journal Entry: Thu Feb 16, 2012, 7:43 PM
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Open Discussion


Instead of having conversations via poll, I thought we'd start simply talking here. About issues facing comickers. About anything! And while I personally do advocate clean talking, I also want to touch upon the tough issues and raw feelings. The Internet is a rough and tough place, and we all have bad days, bad moments, and temper tantrums from time to time. You can't after all, help how you feel about certain things! So... I'd like to talk! What do you think?

Starter topics:

:bulletgreen: How to take a compliment? What kinds of responses are best? Is there a delicate balance

:bulletgreen:  What is the difference between real crit and trolling? Should there be a line? How should it be dealt with? How do YOU deal with it?

:bulletgreen:  Does it bother you when artists doesn't respond to your comments, even when you're a zealous fan of their work?

:bulletgreen:  Do you ever assume an artist is arrogant/uppity? Is it fair/unfair to assume something like this at face value?

:bulletgreen:  Have you ever had an online fight? (It happens.) How do you feel about it now? How important is it to get over differences and be professional/civil to one another and how do you achieve this understanding?





Add a Comment:
 
:iconebolasparklebear:
EbolaSparkleBear Featured By Owner Apr 7, 2012
How to take a compliment? What kinds of responses are best? Is there a delicate balance
Death threats. :iconfrageplz:
That way it's assured you won't get any more compliments and that means less time typing out 'thank you's and stuff. It's the best option for lazy writers.:iconsaulteplz:

What is the difference between real crit and trolling? Should there be a line? How should it be dealt with? How do YOU deal with it?
If you cannot, or will not, trollololol back, just block'em and move on. Easy and simple.

Does it bother you when artists doesn't respond to your comments, even when you're a zealous fan of their work?
I firmly believe if you have no intention, desire, or ability to respond to every non-troll comment you should do everyone a favor and disable comments.


Do you ever assume an artist is arrogant/uppity? Is it fair/unfair to assume something like this at face value?
I think people who have a clear and obvious lack of comment responses are :censored:

Have you ever had an online fight? (It happens.) How do you feel about it now? How important is it to get over differences and be professional/civil to one another and how do you achieve this understanding?
Understanding? Civility? Insane! You have to win at all costs.:iconbucktooothplz:
Internet fights are silly, miscommunications should be easily resolved.
Reply
:iconiiwi:
Iiwi Featured By Owner Mar 21, 2012  Student General Artist
1.How to take a compliment? What kinds of responses are best? Is there a delicate balance

:bulletwhite:You reply by thank you, compliments are a humbling experience and you shouldn't like..start getting a big head and being rude to people? Just be nice when you reply. comments like, you draw so well! you usually respond "Thank you so much,I appreciate it." there's a delicate balance when they go in depth on your art, saying what they like, then you just equally give them you respects in a comment as well.

2. What is the difference between real crit and trolling? Should there be a line? How should it be dealt with? How do YOU deal with it?

:bulletwhite: The different between real critique and trolling is that people seriously confuse the two. this is the difference. Real critique tells you the pros and cons of your work and how to improve and what your art has show and what you like or dislike about his or her work. Critiques are meant to be in depth with your art telling you what they feel you should work on to unleash your potential and keep growing as an artist instead of being stuck inside a standstill. A troll is when a person who likes the amusement of a person getting angry, or frustrated at a comment they have made and there responses and reactions, they find amusement in this and keep on going if you keep fueling their fire. there should always be a line, but they always cross them. when dealing with a troll the best to do is to either hide it as spam or don't respond to it. if you respond to it they will keep on messing with you because they know that they've got a reaction out of you and to keep going and harassing you. trolls do nothing more the cyber bully D:, How do I deal with it? I deal with it by marking it as spam, and not responding. It's not worth it to feed into it.

3. Does it bother you when artists doesn't respond to your comments, even when you're a zealous fan of their work?

:bulletwhite: I'll be honest it does make me feel like, well dang? but If an artist I like does not comment back not even a little or even attempt to, I most likely won't watch them. I'm a fan of my friends work, and people who are generous and kind to comment or respond so If I see beforehand on there page they don't I won't bother commenting. I'm sorry ;w; if it seems a little mean, but I find it a little mean as well when you don't respond at all so before I even get sad I check to see if they treat there watchers kindly, and how they talk with them or generally care. I am more a fan of people who are nice and kind over someone who does not care or seem to care. I can understand that you get like trillions of messages but not even your front page? or a little of comments? that just seems really sad and like my comment does not matter, so if i feel I do not matter as a fan I won't add you. or regard you as such. wouldn't you want someone to respond to you back?

4. Do you ever assume an artist is arrogant/uppity? Is it fair/unfair to assume something like this at face value?

:bulletwhite: I really don't know them so I can't really assume based on nothing, but I can if they show that they are being rude and they act like they're entitled to certain stuff or things then I won't bother them. I like to engage with people who are friendly, and want to interact with there watchers/friends/fans. If i get an indication that you are arrogant or uppity? I won't support your behavior and find someone else who will really appreciate my time. Like, people can be "cocky" but not cocky to where there stepping on people and belittling them. this is how I feel about this situation. even though it is quite unfair at times to take something at face value people who usually show there true colours mean it, and you should listen the first time. Ya know? It's generally, treat people as you want to be treated.

5. Have you ever had an online fight? (It happens.) How do you feel about it now? How important is it to get over differences and be professional/civil to one another and how do you achieve this understanding?

:bulletwhite: when I had a bad temper, and didn't know well conflict resolution I had my rounds of online fighting. when I look back at it now, I think that all could have been avoided if there the time was taken to understand that there was a miscommunication going on the whole time. Now that i'm much more knowing and more humble. I don't get into fights with people, If someone shows anger. I won't fuel the fire with more anger like I used to. I'll just say. I apologize you feel this way what would you like me to do so we can fix this problem? and this has helped me combat my ruffian days lol. if you will. It is very important to at least come to some sort of agree to disagree. to be civil towards one another, even if it's somebody angry and they flame you. I stopped taking insults so personally now so I find the best ways possible to avoid fighting and anger. I strongly believe hate + hate = hate and hate + love = love ;3 but this is just me. I don't like arguing in real life so surely I certainly wouldn't want it online when people think it's a free for all to say anything they want because they are safety behind a computer screen.
Reply
:iconashikai:
Ashikai Featured By Owner Feb 20, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
How to take a compliment? What kinds of responses are best? Is there a delicate balance

A real artist takes a compliment LIKE A MAN! Or like reassurance that you're doing something well. Personally, I'm really awkward with compliments (artwork or no artwork), but I normally laugh and say thanks. I don't really like to start conversations with a compliment. It must be a personality flaw. =\


What is the difference between real crit and trolling? Should there be a line? How should it be dealt with? How do YOU deal with it?

A real artist WANTS to be critiqued because they WANT to improve. When you stare at something for hours on end you're very likely to lose sight of what it is you lack. Fresh eyes, professional grade or not, can spot things you can't. It's like missing the forest for all the trees, you know? If you're having a hard time accepting a critique, I think it's a good idea to ask yourself "why?". I actually really like having my stuff ripped apart because I find it a lot more useful than a "it's so pretty!" or similar commentary.

Like others have posted, Trolling is a personal attack and should never be taken seriously. It's like a bully syndrome... you know that big kid in middle school who used to smack you around and
it was only after highschool that you found out about his parents divorcing or something. That insecurity is normally the cause for any behaviour. It's also possible that Trolls are trolling because their drunk or really stupid. I will never know for sure.

Dealing with it is easy. Just laugh it off, smile and nod, or roll your eyes and hit the "Ban/block" button. Gotta love the Internet.


Does it bother you when artists doesn't respond to your comments, even when you're a zealous fan of their work?

Only if I asked them a question. If I said something like, "DUDE! THAT'S SO COOL!" or something, I don't expect a reply.


Do you ever assume an artist is arrogant/uppity? Is it fair/unfair to assume something like this at face value?

I don't mind arrogance really. Normally that's just some form of confidence and it's forgivable. What I cannot stand more than anything is when an artist starts being rude and acts like they're entitled to certain things. That's a definite turn-off. Entitlement. GYAH!


Have you ever had an online fight? (It happens.) How do you feel about it now? How important is it to get over differences and be professional/civil to one another and how do you achieve this understanding?

I am the most infuriating person to fight with. I just don't get mad and when someone attacks me, I respond with thorough outlined reasons why I did what I did and when they prove me wrong I'm like, "Oh. You're right. Well ok then." And that always seems to make people madder. Totally my bad. I don't really feel anything from them, but I'm sure the other party does. ^^;
Reply
:iconebolasparklebear:
EbolaSparkleBear Featured By Owner Apr 7, 2012
"A real artist WANTS to be critiqued"

:iconliesplz:

You generalize and assume too much.
Reply
:iconashikai:
Ashikai Featured By Owner Apr 7, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
D:
LIES! ALL OF THEM LIES.
Reply
:iconloomcomics:
LOOMcomics Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
yeah, usually you start conversation with a WEIRD INTERNET PICTURE/LINK!

Getting crit is sort of like getting attention. As a younger sister I wanted that growing up. "Pay attention to meeee!"

your comments about trolls make me want to make some kind of Troll artwork. A TROLL! what's behind Door #1? EMO/personal troubles! Door #2? Personal insecuuuriiiity! Door #3: Inebriation! etc etc
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:iconashikai:
Ashikai Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
DO IT. It would be hilarious. XD
Reply
:iconraluca-z:
raluca-z Featured By Owner Feb 18, 2012
1.How do you take a compliment.
I used to get a lot of comments mainly compliments a couple of years ago when I was more active on DA. I went through 2 phases: where I replied politely with "thanks for..." to all or most of all the comments I received including favs and watches and phase 2, because of the sheer amount of TIME it took to reply to everyone I decided NOT to reply to any fav-ing, watch-ing, commenting with compliments involved. If there was a technical question I'd reply. I made a journal post about that explaining things, hoping people won't think I'm rude all of the sudden. I don't know how well that's worked since I rarely get any comments on DA these days.

Outside DA and in general I try to be polite and short. It's because I feel there's not so much interaction in accepting a compliment if both parties agree how great/cool/good a piece is. Regardless of what I think about my own pieces (an artist always knows the big/little mistakes he's made in a piece) I like to receive compliments (I do have an ego and I don't deny it). The reverse, I compliment or fav pieces that I really like or really inspire me.

2. what is the difference between real crit and trolling?
As has been mentioned before, emphasis on the piece at hand and not the person coupled with a certain diplomacy (I sometimes lack) in putting things together. Giving critiques is somehow more complicated than receiving it because you never know how the other person (which you know from the net and not in real life) will take it. I've been told on several occasions that I "tear a piece to shreds" or that I'm too blunt when giving critique. This has put me to thinking and dampening some of my too face off remarks when I review a piece.

The reverse, me receiving critique, works in more or less this way: I read it, try to purge all the phrases that are too negative or poorly/undiplomatically worded, see if any of the things mentioned as lacking are true and then decide if and how I'm going to improve that. In my experience of receiving critique in architecture school, not everything a person says to be wrong is actually wrong. It's their opinion, which is not 100% valid, thus I'm not obliged to implement 100% the changes mentioned there.

When I give critique I expect at least for it to be read, especially since I took the time of writing it. I don't expect the artist will necessarily improve because of it. Precisely because it's the artist's call to take the critique or not.

3. Does it bother you when artists don't respond to your comments?
Not really. I does somewhat bother me when I post pages after pages and I see no feedback (ref. to smackjeeves here). Or equally at the end of a story when there's a big silence. I feel like I'm walking in the dark with no flashlight whatsoever. It doesn't have to be positive feedback, compliments, it could be critique, questions, anything. Because of my age, job and real life friends (which are not into manga/BD/webcomics that much anymore) I get few people to talk about my series. Comments would be a chance to elaborate/ offer insights to the story. Any yes, people could say "why don't you make new friends passionate about the same things?" To them I answer. "It's hard these days when I get to spend 2-3hrs online on average to make and keep friends." I had to choose between online socializing and making pages/illustrations and since the latter took priority that's how things ended up.

So to get back to the subject of the question. No, it doesn't bother me since I dismiss not answering comments as plain and simple "too busy" to answer them. After all I do the same and I know the excuse is ever so real.

4. Do you ever assume and artist is arrogant/uppity?
No since I'm usually assumed to be arrogant and uppity so I choose not to assume that about anyone else. After all, unless I get to know that person in real life, online, one can never be sure of things like character. We often get misurderstood a lot.

5. Have you ever had an online fight?
Several in fact. Mainly because I pass as an arrogant/uppity person online... sometimes I've been called and assumed the role of "bitch". At times I was the one who caused the fight with my bluntness and ever so unnerving tone (I come off ironical, too serios at times, I guess is because I don't use emoticons. Never did, never will), meddling in things I shouldn't have or saying things I shouldn't have. Since then I've learned to shut the fuck at key moments as not to cause a drama/flame. At other times I fell victim to trolling. Learned from that also. Then at other times I was faced with people who simply would not read what I wrote to them and would shut themselves in. I let them be and moved on.

It is important to get over differences and be on speaking terms but at times that is not possible (i.e. someone blocking you on DA and keep bashing you months after the incident). Even when one party learns to accept the difference, get over it and forget, the other one may chose not to. Those are extreme cases that I chose to ignore all together.

PS. Nice idea to have this journal post up.
Reply
:iconloomcomics:
LOOMcomics Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
2. Bluntness. I'm blunt in personality. My parents called me "Thumper" my entire life. When I first got introduced to a computer at age 16, I was in the throes of teenagerhood. I was pretty immature, and that only worsened my natural tendency. Sometimes I was outright rude, and sometimes it was on purpose to get a response. When I got older and go to giving crits out loud to people at galleries, crit sessions, etc, I think that helped me get a handle on how to put things in words better. now, I feel okay giving crit, but I only do it in private. For whatever reason, I feel more comfy in private, and my points come off more objectively/respectfully.

You remind me of myself the way you describe it, actually. I feel a resonance with a lot of the things you said there. It's even worse in real life. I'm a little quiet, my face is kinda of like my dad's, "etched into a permanent scowl." Sometimes I find myself in a really good mood and I think, "Gosh! I just feel so happy today!" and then someone will ask me, "Are you okay? You look really mad like you could kill someone."

...

T_T So people assume I'm aloof or something. Or uppity/arrogant etc. A few people have assumed this online because I participate in so many things. In reality, I'm just genuinely interested in things, so I'm pretty out with this interest (comics, movies, etc). I never claim to be an expert in anything. I feel like I should've picked a screenname like "Perpetual-Newb" or something, though!

I've blocked people on dA and while I realize this does prevent "making up" sometimes it is necessary for peace of mind and just taking the stress level down for both parties. I think too is can work like a "timeout/break time" for people, too.

PS. Should I do a question of the week each sunday then? This is a long list. Maybe I should chop it down to ONE and make it a regular thing? y/n?
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:iconraluca-z:
raluca-z Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012
A questionaire for each week on a given topic to discuss would be more interesting than a question per week thing. Also a good idea would be to collect these questions and various important, interesting answers and do a series of articles on DA with them. I think it would be an interesting feature for the club.

PS. In real life I have a seemingly split personality as in sometimes I'm very shy and at others I'm bossy. Online I seem to be in bossy talkative mode most of the times
Reply
:iconloomcomics:
LOOMcomics Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
Ash already mentioned a compilation up above. I think turning QotW/M into articles is a really good idea.
Reply
:iconashikai:
Ashikai Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Yes. Yes you should. It's an awesome idea.
Reply
:iconmyfatfelix88:
myfatfelix88 Featured By Owner Feb 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I know this isn't quite following with your questions, but I can't help but feel that art is not respected. Many places expect artwork (whether it be a logo, web design, illustrations, etc) to be done for free. The general idea is that it's a hobby, and you should be grateful for the opportunity.

My supervisor at work wanted me to illustrate some things for her book. I was excited about this prospect, and definitely unprepared. But she expected me to do the illustrations right that minute as she watched. It really doesn't work that way. I put a lot of effort into the things I do, and even more so if I know that it's going somewhere. I'm not an artist by any means, but it does sadden me to see how this industry runs. I felt awkward asking her about royalties, but I had read what other artists wrote about this matter and how you shouldn't work for free. I didn't bring this up, I just asked her if there was a contract or any royalties involved and I felt that she may have gotten a tad defensive about the subject. She told me that the company does not pay royalties. Period. Which I know is absolute bunk, because they have to if they are a publishing company. The authors get paid. Or at least I HOPE they do. ^^; The book I illustrated some things for is more a niche thing, so its appeal is limited. (Which is ironically what she said about my art, as she said it was anime. Which I found amusing, since I don't consider any of my work anime at all. Maybe more Disney-esque.)

So long story short, I considered the offer, went home and slept on it, worked on some pieces, and decided to do it. Everybody around me (except for one friend) jumped at the prospect. The opportunity! They're doing me such a favor! So I couldn't help but feel bad if I didn't do it. That, and I really want to have something to put on my resume, something to say that yes, I had been published. Even if it's in super fine print in the back corner of the back corner's back corner. XD

The entire point of this post is that art isn't respected because it is assumed that people make art solely for their own enjoyment. While maybe this is true for some people, it's hardly the case for all, and I know others out there, quite unlike me, who devote their lives for the study of art. They go to school to perfect it, and spend much of their savings on it. Which seems to be a lot for something that's just supposed to be a "hobby."

How does this idea even get changed? How does one get rid of, or discourage the "contest" idea of getting art done? Oh sure, it's great for the company-- free labor, rights, and publicity. But for the individual, not so much.

I can say for certain that I am a hobbyist, my work does not warrant anything more. But I worry for the artists out there.
Reply
:iconashikai:
Ashikai Featured By Owner Feb 20, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I think that's pretty insightful. You know, years and years ago (like 300+ years), artists were considered vital because they were the ones who carried the burden of 'culture'. That is to say, they were responsible for representing cultural nuances that could be passed on to the future generations. Many artists would also take the role/title of artisan and integrate their artworks in functional pieces (like pottery, cloth, wood paneling, etc) and they were highly respected.

Now-a-days we're on the flip side of that. Artists are being commercialized and their work is being quantified which, in reality, isn't something that should or really can be quantified. At some point the general population got so inundated with art that we no longer see it as being valuable because it's EVERYWHERE. And something that's everywhere (like air for instance) can't be very valuable, can it?

But can you really imagine a world without art? Take a look around your house and try to imagine what it would look like if every artistic influence was gone from your home. No pictures on the walls, no fancy woodwork on your bookshelves, no pretty print on your bedspread. Even things like this website would be reduced to just plain text, no emoticons or beveled buttons. I think that would be a very sad world to live in.

Unfortunately, the reality is that the general population no longer supports artists.

I personally would have told that woman to shove it, BTW. If she's not willing to treat you like a proper contractor, than she has no right to work with you. Just my two cents.
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:iconmyfatfelix88:
myfatfelix88 Featured By Owner Feb 20, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
I feel that there's this general idea that "anybody can do art." I remember seeing a news story a while back about a four year old girl who was selling her art for thousands of dollars. And the art was what I would imagine a four year old's to be, with its own charm and the like, but not something that would merit the price and the publicity following it. It struck me more as buying into the publicity, rather than buying the art itself.

Yet, so many people I talk to insist that they're "bad at art." If everybody is so bad at art, as they say, then where does this disregard for art come from? Art has become a magic trick, in that you impress all your friends when you draw something for them, or in front of them. They all coo and laugh and berate their own talents, but nothing can come of this further. Well, at least for me.

Somebody has to make art. But you're right! There's art everywhere, and somebody's behind the design of it. I doubt the majority of stuff is done out of simple enjoyment for the craft. People get hungry. So how is any of this art getting done if there's no money behind it?

This reminds me of what Bill Maher said about the arts. He condemned it and all who studied it and got their degrees in the arts. I can't remember what episode it was, but one of guests tried to advocate for the importance of art, but he was cut off. Bill has that sort of personality. :/

I've never thought of art as being elite, but I can't help but think that I wish it was raised in higher regard.

As for my supervisor, I don't think I'll take an assignment from her again. I'm still on the fence about it, but she did edit one of my pieces without telling me. Nothing major, some tweaks to the hair, but I still felt a bit embarrassed that she did. The whole "anybody can do art" thing flew in my head when I saw what she had done with it.

Thank you so much for taking the time to hear me out and even replying! Just getting feedback and conversation makes a world of difference. :3
Reply
:iconashikai:
Ashikai Featured By Owner Feb 20, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Well, I do think you're right on the money with your observations. It really is an elitist "But anyone can do it!" attitude that people seem to take when approaching artists. If you tell someone "I wanna grow up to be an artist" they'll laugh at you! That's just sad. I can't help but wonder how it's really any different from saying "I want to be a doctor" or "I wanna be an electrician" or something. I mean, all three trades will take about the same amount of effort to become proficient in. I mean, technically art is subjective whereas medicine and electrical engineering are rather quantifiable (IE, the patient got better, or he didn't; or the lights work or they don't), but it's still not an excuse.

Ah, it's a really interesting topic, isn't it? Art appreciation. Well, real art appreciation. I don't consider staring at photographs of someone's penis and trying to decipher the meaning of life from it art appreciation... things like this: [link] bug me greatly. IT'S NOT ART! It's a performance piece... subjectively speaking it COULD be art, but-but....ARGH! Frustrating.

Anyone can do ANYTHING poorly. Only talented people can do SOMETHING well. That's my two cents.
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:iconknight-dawn:
Knight-Dawn Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Student General Artist
I was reading through some of these comments, and yours here really struck a chord with me.
I've always loved art, but only decided to become a comics writer and novelist two years ago (and gave the decision a lot of thought first--about two-three years worth of it) and even now I'm still somewhat reluctant to tell people when they ask me what I plan to go into.
I'm happy and excited, yeah--but the flip side to it is that I'm also always somewhat scared that their response will be to tell me to go into something more stable/more profitable/A REAL JOB.
I can't speak for every artist out there, but I know that I, for one, take my dream seriously. When I tell someone what I hope to accomplish I don't want to have to smile and poke fun at it, nor do I want anyone else to. If it's my dream, why can't I state it as proudly as someone saying, "I want to be a doctor?"
At least I'm movitivated by my love for something and by the satisfaction I get from finishing a piece of art--I'm not really in it for the money so much. If I'm good enough, I'll get by--but no matter what, I'll be happy to be able to do something I love. For me, it's that simple.
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:iconashikai:
Ashikai Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Very well said. You may not speak for every artist, but you can certainly speak for me. ;)
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:iconknight-dawn:
Knight-Dawn Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Student General Artist
Thanks. :D
I'm glad you think the same way... It's good to know I'm not the only one.^^
Reply
:iconmyfatfelix88:
myfatfelix88 Featured By Owner Feb 20, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Oh! I found Bill Maher's comments:
[link]

Bill Maher can just be so obnoxious sometimes.
Reply
:iconashikai:
Ashikai Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
What a ****.
Reply
:iconloomcomics:
LOOMcomics Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
D:>
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:icondarjeelingplumtea:
DarjeelingPlumTea Featured By Owner Feb 18, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Not to be cynical, just realistic that it's unlikely to change for several reasons.

1) Art isn't, unfortunately seen as essential. It's seen in most cases as decoration, as an add on. Most books can be sold without pictures but they can't be sold without the words.

2) Non-artists really can't grasp the mental and physical effort that goes into a drawing. The non-artists says "Can you do x?" And the artist -- magically -- returns with x. So the *seeming* ease sometimes -- *sometimes* -- makes it less likely people will pay a fair price for it.

And of course professional artists with 1000s of hours of practice can whip a cool sketch out in a few minutes so anyone who struggles is seen as an amateur and therefore worth amateur prices. Which might be nothing more than "You should be grateful that I offered to let you do this."

3) There will always be hobbyists who will jump at the chance for a "for real" challenge they wouldn't normally get. And they'll do it for free because it will be a fun unique project for them.

4) While artists should see themselves as professionals, not hourly workers, for the sake of comparison, a lower end professional gets $35-$50ish per hour. Is a small drawing that takes you an hour worth $35-$50? A comic page can take 10-20 hours from sketch to completion. Which is why most comic artists find prints provide a much better return for their time than comic books. ;-) Comics are done for love. Prints are done to pay the bills.
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:iconmyfatfelix88:
myfatfelix88 Featured By Owner Feb 20, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Thank you so much for this wealth of information! I don't think my reply can do much justice, as I'm still chewing on what you wrote. (Well not literally chewing, sorry for the strange mental picture.) I definitely would not price my work anywhere near a professional level, and so I feel bad, as if I'm watering down the work of artists even further. Primarily because I am a hobbyist, and I did jump at this opportunity. Well, I kind of did. More hesitantly, but I did take it anyway.

I've always felt that art can make the book sell. I know in the UK there are two different editions of the Harry Potter novels. One for adults and one for children, the only difference being the covers. It is true that people will back away from a cover that they either don't like or feel uncomfortable toting around. Why else is their an adult version? Just to make the adults more comfortable in their read. ^o^I guess this great equalizer in this field would be the ebook. Or is it Kindle? Nook? I don't know anymore, they keep making new ones all the time. XD

I probably won't take another art assignment from my supervisor again. I was a bit peeved in that she edited it on her computer after I gave it to her. Which is petty of me, probably, but I felt a bit weird when I realized that the girl's hair had been changed a bit. Of course I didn't say anything. Should I have?

Also, I've been wondering about prints and the like. Is it really a reasonable self-sustaining measure? Printing stuff is expensive, and paying for an table at Artists' Alley at cons is expensive, as well as any other costs that go into making the sale. Do you make enough sales to cover the costs and leave you with some nice padding for your wallet? (I use the term liberally, lol) I'm really quite curious. I guess there's selling online, but I always wondered about how that would work.

Sorry for bombarding you with questions. I'm insatiably curious!
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:icondarjeelingplumtea:
DarjeelingPlumTea Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Insatiably curious is good :-)

(Well, now *this* turned into an essay ;-)

I didn't mean to make you feel bad for not being able to turn out $50 art in an hour. The majority of artists can't. (I'm including *anyone* who feels they are an artist, not just "professionals".) Which is why it's not good to think of art that way. But it's also why *original* art is so expensive and why non-artists don't understand why it's so expensive. Artists have to make a living off of what they produce. An artist who produces 1 painting a month -- which sounds like a lot of paintings! -- needs to sell those paintings for $1000 each just to reach poverty level income if they're to survive just on their art!

Commercial art and prints are different, of course. Rather than one person paying $50/hour for what went into the piece, many people can have their own copy for less. If you sell 5 copies of a print for $10 that took you an hour, there's the $50. (That's simplistic since how much it costs to print need factored in too.) Of course the trick is having something that 5 people want to spend $10 on ;-) Or 10 people want to spend $5. *And* getting to those people (like at a convention.)

I don't think you should feel bad for taking the offer. If you had fun, great :-) Life should be about finding ways to do what you enjoy :-)

What will help in the future is being realistic about what is in your control and what isn't, and then let go of what isn't.

For instance, once you give someone something -- art or a gift or anything --, or once you sell something to someone, it belongs to them. They get to do with it what they please. Unless you and the seller sign a contract that has certain rules. For instance, authors very very rarely get any say on what is done to their book when it's turned into a movie. When they sell the rights to a movie company, that's exactly what they're doing: selling their right to control how it's interpreted in movie form. It helps their blood pressure greatly to realize the movie producers may have a totally different take on the book and the final movie may bear little resemblance to their book. (JK Rowling is a special case since it would have been a muddle if the movies had contradicted what she had planned for the series.)

To get back to art ;-) if you create art for someone, they get to alter it, unless you have a contract saying they can't. Art buyers with people skills will understand that artists don't want their art abused. Art buyers will avoid abusing art if they want to buy from that artist again. But, artists selling (or giving away) their art for commercial purposes can help themselves be happier by being realistic that commercial art is intended to meet a particular need. The art buyer's need takes priority over the artist's vision of that need.

As for your boss, if she asked you to do something on company time that wasn't in your job description, she was *technically* wrong. But if it's something you enjoy and wouldn't mind doing again (as opposed to getting her coffee or picking up her dry cleaning for instance ;-), it's not a problem. (It's a problem for *her* if the company has an art department. She was being unethical if you're paid less per hour since she'd be able to show a cheaper bottom line on what the project cost to produce than what it should have cost her department.)

If she was okay with you spending work time creating the art (even if you ended up doing it at home) then she did pay you for it. It was, then, part of your job. And anything you produce on time you're paid for belongs to the company. (This is a good thing to know! Even if you're writing a novel, using company resources, doing it on time the company is paying for, technically it belongs to them. Most company's won't make it an issue unless you end up making gobs of money on the project or go to a different company and make them gobs of money with ideas that came from the first company. It sounds mercenary, but they're paying you to do x and if you're using their resources and time to produce y to sell for your own profit, it''s easier to see as pretty blatant stealing!)

If you did it on your own time, then it's up to you to negotiate the terms you want before you agree and sign a contract. You made an "implied contract" by verbally agreeing to do it without further compensation. Asking about some kind of compensation after you created it, well, she was right to be miffed. That's why contracts exist. Because we can't depend on people understanding and wanting to give what each person in the agreement wants and needs. So it's all spelled out in writing and people sign indicating they understand what's expected. (Ideally anyway ;-))

Whether you ask for compensation in the future is totally up to you. If she wants this done outside of company time, she's basically hiring an outside contractor for the art. If you enjoy the challenge and don't mind doing it for free, go ahead. If she keeps asking for future project and it becomes more of a burden than fun, let her know that it's taking up too much time and you wouldn't mind being paid for it, but don't have the free time to do any more. And then don't be upset if she finds someone else to do it for free! Keep the focus on finding ways to do what you enjoy. :-) If it becomes something you don't enjoy, let it go.

(As for her altering your art, she has the right to do that, but, as I said, if she understood from your point of view, she would have asked you to make the changes. *But* it's realistic not to expect someone to see from your point of view. *And* it's helpful to see from their point of view. From her point of view it was probably a change that took a minute. Asking you to change it, reviewing it to see if it was what she wanted, sending it back if it wasn't, could have delayed it by hours (and eaten up $ since the company is paying her and your time). If in the future you'd like to make the changes yourself, do say "If there's anything you'd like me to change, just let me know." But do expect she may not.)

As for making money at conventions ... it depends! :-) Artists *can* make decent money, but only if what they have to sell inspires the desire to buy it in enough people to offset the costs. So some artists do very well. Some do oaky, some break even, some lose money. The real true trick is to produce what you love in ways that other people love enough to want to buy it. :-) Maybe a (fantasy) analogy is if someone has a beautiful singing voice beyond the range of human hearing, but don't care if others can hear them sing, then they can keep right on singing in their ultrasound voice. But if they want others to enjoy it too, they will need to take other people's needs into account and make adjustments to their voice. Some artists get so stuck in the idea that other people should love whatever they produce just because it's what they felt inspired to create, when that just isn't realistic.

(I enjoyed your comic, BTW. Very cute :-)
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:iconashikai:
Ashikai Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
This is a really fantastic discussion here. Does anyone mind if I compile this into a single document? (Like a recorded conversation)
Reply
:icondarjeelingplumtea:
DarjeelingPlumTea Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Cool idea :-)
Reply
:iconkaichi1342:
kaichi1342 Featured By Owner Feb 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Even though I am still barely a year here in DA I will join the discussion
:bulletgreen: How to take a compliment? What kinds of responses are best? Is there a delicate balance
>I try to atleast say thank you ^^. But being a forgetful person or a person who let the messages pile up I sometimes is late in saying it. So I ended up apologizing to them. But it kinda awkward when people compliment a work that I don't feel highly, so sometimes I may sound self deprecatory when in reality that is how I feel. I think everyone just try to be honest in it.

:bulletgreen: What is the difference between real crit and trolling? Should there be a line? How should it be dealt with? How do YOU deal with it?
>I take crits and negative comment of about the same. I dissect them note what is helpful and see if I can use it on my next project. I do some 3d stuff which I do most of the time than my 2d arts so I get crits in there. I have yet to read an overly negative comment on my work (hey I am just about a year here). But I read some on other people. I think trolling or troll post are those post that you can't get anything useful on it. like comments like "it sucks or it is ugly". What can you possibly learn from it. But if they say "hey it is ugly because you use a wrong background or that the anatomy is off" <- that one is a valid criticism.

:bulletgreen: Does it bother you when artists doesn't respond to your comments, even when you're a zealous fan of their work?
>Nope. Well as a person who does not care if you answer or not, I am completely fine with it. For me I like your work and if you answer back I will be grateful. But I am grateful enough that you share a beautiful work ^^.
Either way the work I am fan so much are picture of cats and they probably will not answer me :rofl:

:bulletgreen: Do you ever assume an artist is arrogant/uppity? Is it fair/unfair to assume something like this at face value?
>I avoid it as much as possible. I stand with you cant judge anyone until you become them. I also have low detecting radar in regards to artist/people that they call jerks. So even if some people tell me that an artist here in DA is arrogant until I know for sure I will view him as a good people.

:bulletgreen: Have you ever had an online fight? (It happens.) How do you feel about it now? How important is it to get over differences and be professional/civil to one another and how do you achieve this understanding?
>I don't know if it can be considered a fight. I think it is more like an emotional outburst of mine. I get so frustrated when someone (now that I think of it) unintentionally told me that I use a base in making a 3d anime/manga character. I know there are people who really use bases but I pried myself on making my own stuff from a single point. To the point I make my own tools including brushes, textures and BGs. It is not the rejection of the artwork from the group but rather the doubt that the work is not mine that makes me angry.
That how it works for me. But ones the emotional storm subsided. I immediately apologizes to them/her about it and show evidences that the work is done by me.
I don't like fighting honestly and I try to understand them as much as possible (though sometimes I can't take accusations), but I try to be always neutral and when it is me that is at fault I apologize immediately.
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:iconcaraphae:
Caraphae Featured By Owner Feb 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
How to take a compliment? What kinds of responses are best? Is there a delicate balance

I'm surprised by how many people here seem afraid and confused of and by compliments!;P In art as in anything else, the easiest thing is a quick "Hey, thanks"- with maybe a little elaboration if you think it would be helpful *to the other party* , ex. "Thanks, glad you like my brushwork! Would you believe this is all Photoshooop? I got the brushes over here, you shoudl check it out, this dude's awesome."

:bulletgreen: What is the difference between real crit and trolling? Should there be a line? How should it be dealt with? How do YOU deal with it?
I think it's pretty straightforward- a real crit, however negative, is about the work (and sometimes a piece or an artist's entire skill level is just no good!) but a troll is about the personal attacks and drama. So "Your anatomy is weak all over, try and find a life drawing class" is a crit, but "Your anatomy is weak all over, why are you showing us this, you're an arrogant jerk, try getting some life drawing classes first before you post like you know something you so-and-so" is a troll, even though they're both giving some of the same advice. :P


:bulletgreen: Does it bother you when artists doesn't respond to your comments, even when you're a zealous fan of their work?
Oooonly when I think I might have offended. Then I run away and never speak again because oh god oh god they HATE ME NOOOOW and it can't be that they have five pages of comments and a day job, it's all ME and how they HATE MEEEE.
...Shame is deeply egocentric, ever notice?XP


:bulletgreen: Do you ever assume an artist is arrogant/uppity? Is it fair/unfair to assume something like this at face value?
...What's the face? What am I working on?
Anyway, even if an artist IS arrogant, that doesn't mean I don't like 'em! Some of my best friends are arrogant! Hell, we all have to be a little arrogant to think that our henscratch matters enough to share, even if we're masters. Did you know there are nebulae and one day the sun will implode? But we draw cartoons and that matters to us? :mindboggles:
To be an artist is to have a wee bit of an ego problem, but I think it's healthy!

:bulletgreen: Have you ever had an online fight? (It happens.) How do you feel about it now? How important is it to get over differences and be professional/civil to one another and how do you achieve this understanding?
Knives were drawn! Blood filled the gutter! The Internet Police were called, and drove to the scene, lights flashing, only to find me fled, my erstwhile foe in a pool of their own...ink? Electrons?
I'm not sure how that would work really. But sometimes people are kind of jerks? But if they make me think about my positions and question myself that's good! I am a large semi-adult human, I should be able to take a few insults. I try not to GIVE offense, but sometimes, well, if someone's gonna get offended by my belief that I have the right to exist, or hate me because I think cats are funny (This Has Happened) there's not a lot I can do. Then it's movin' on time!
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:iconloomcomics:
LOOMcomics Featured By Owner Feb 17, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
OMG. How can you think CATS are funny?! Cats are Gods!

Kidding aside, interesting responses. :)
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:iconcaraphae:
Caraphae Featured By Owner Feb 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
...Gods are funny.
Seriously Thor and his trick with the goats, he's hiLARious, and ever seen Susanoo when he gets on a tear, oh man...
Of course then they'll smite you and stuff, but still, good times! Good times.
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:iconloomcomics:
LOOMcomics Featured By Owner Feb 18, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
:nod:
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:iconjacquelynvansant:
jacquelynvansant Featured By Owner Feb 17, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Discussions, yay! :w00t:

1.How to take a compliment? What kinds of responses are best? Is there a delicate balance?

I try to take compliments with a balance of humility (I know there are thousands and thousands of artists far better than I) and gratitude. On a personal level, it is encouraging to receive compliments on my artistic endeavors. The best types of responses are those that are genuine (not sarcastic) and positive.

2. What is the difference between real crit and trolling? Should there be a line? How should it be dealt with? How do YOU deal with it?

A real critique is one that points out what you have done well and provides insight in how you can improve, either with that specific work or in future works of a similar nature. The intention is always to provide friendly and positive feedback in order to help a fellow artist improve. Trolling is when someone with points out mistakes (or things they dislike) in harsh, opinionated, and/or cruel ways with no intention of helping the artist improve.

Personally, when I receive a negative comment that alerts my "troll radar", I will immediately visit the poster's DA account. I have found that the majority of trolls I have come across have absolutely no artistic skill or creative sense of their own. Also, I believe that those who attack others just to tear them down tend either have an inferiority complex, self-loathing, low self-esteem, etc. Since they themselves are envious of the skills of others, they want to damage the self-esteem of budding artists. Or since they are feeling miserable for whatever reason, they wish to make everyone else miserable, too. To be blunt, their "opinion" is not even worth the time it takes to consider it and definitely not worth taking personally. Most often, I will hide their trolling comment and go about my business never to think about them again. If the trolling persists (as in, it seems a specific individual "has it out for you"), report them to DA.

3. Does it bother you when artists doesn't respond to your comments, even when you're a zealous fan of their work?

Not really. I can appreciate how busy artists are, as many of them have regular jobs or studies that take the majority of their time and create the work they put in their DA galleries in whatever meager free time they have. I would rather they continue to spend that precious free time making more amazing art than replying to dozens (sometimes hundreds) of comments. I try to response to as many comments as I can despite my unbelievably hectic schedule, but then, I do not get too many comments.

4. Do you ever assume an artist is arrogant/uppity? Is it fair/unfair to assume something like this at face value?

Unless I have had the opportunity to hold a number of conversations with someone or it is abundantly clear from the individual's writing (in their DA's journal or the author's notes in their deviations), I never assume someone is arrogant or uppity. I do believe it is unfair to assume something like this at face value.

5. Have you ever had an online fight? (It happens.) How do you feel about it now? How important is it to get over differences and be professional/civil to one another and how do you achieve this understanding?

The only time I can remember ever getting into a "fight" online was more of an intellectual/philosophical argument that took place nearly 6 or 7 years ago. Originally, it started out as a friendly discussion, the other person got upset and started to attack, and I disengaged by politely stating that it was perfectly alright for the two of us to have different opinions and we should agree to disagree. I am the type of person who loves to help others, I have a number of passions that I admittedly feel strong about, and I have convictions that I will not compromise on; however, I do not approve of instigating, egging on, or actively participating in fights, especially online. If I cannot descalate the fight into a calm and mature discussion, then I will end it by removing myself from it completely. There is no "winner" in a fight and absolutely no respect, for oneself and the other person(s) involved. You end up showing the worst of yourself to others and often say or do things that you will regret later.

Just so you do not misunderstand and think I'm a pacifist or something, my nature and personality is to "prove I am right". I know when I am right and the other person is wrong. I have an INTJ personality. [link] Years ago, I would correct others when they were wrong and would argue until I proved was I in the right. I have matured greatly over the years, and I have learned when to speak up and when to just let things go. Some things, even if the other person is so obviously in the wrong, are not worth fighting over.
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:iconloomcomics:
LOOMcomics Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
Yeah, but in the words of my mom, "Somewhere, there's always someone better than you, in whatever you do." So I think comparisons like that can be at times wasteful. I say just focus on being the best arts you can be and staying happy. ^^ I agree w/ you about positivity!
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:iconjacquelynvansant:
jacquelynvansant Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Hobbyist General Artist
Haha... Well said. Comparing oneself to others can definitely be wasteful if we let it get us down. For example, "I will never be as good as so-and-so... so why bother?" type thinking. On the other hand, it can help prevent arrogance and give something to aspire towards.
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:iconmegami-mizuno:
megami-mizuno Featured By Owner Feb 17, 2012  Hobbyist Writer
Though I still feel like the awkward newbie poking my nose into discussions I shouldn't be in, I shall make my comments anyhow. @.@ Discussions are fun, though I'll have to wait till I have time later to comment on what other people have said~

1. How to take a compliment? What kinds of responses are best? Is there a delicate balance
Hmm... I don't usually get many compliments cuz my art is crappy, and I'm somewhat of a tsundere so it's always kinda of awkward... I mean, I like to get compliments just like the next guy, but I never know quite how to respond. I usually just stick with a modest 'thank you', though, and end up mentioning that it isn't something I'm particularly satisfied with. I kinda picked that up from Japanese class, since we were taught to always reply in the negative to a compliment since it's a culture thing. So even if I think I've done a good job, I tend to rely sort of in the negative... But I had to stop doing that around my friends. Even when I drew what I considered to be a personal masterpiece, they would still agree with me that it sucks. =.= As far as giving compliments, as long as my message got across sincerely to the artist I don't really mind how they reply. Each person has their own way of expressing gratitude, so I don't think it's my place to judge how they express it. I just make sure not to give compliments unless I actually think that what they've draw/painted looks good so nobody has to worry about whether a compliment is what I actually think, or if I'm just saying that to be nice.

2. What is the difference between real crit and trolling? Should there be a line? How should it be dealt with? How do YOU deal with it?
A whole lot of people I run into seem to take my real critiques as rude as offensive, so I've kinda stopped helping. =.= And it's not like I present it in an offensive way; I took creative writing classes where we were taught how to give solid critiques and not be trolls. Some people will just always assume you're trolling and/or being downright rude no matter how sincere the criticism. The way I see the difference is that if you say something negative about a piece, you should give a solid 'why' or 'how [to fix it]' to back up your statement. Statements like "that sucks" or "it's just crappy" or "how is that real art work?" don't really have a place in any community and are nothing but trolling. But something like "I don't like how you drew the eyes; they should be more like blah blah blah" I think is fair game. When showing other people artwork, writing or any kinda of creative work you shouldn't expect nothing but smiles and compliments, but should expect some friendly criticism as well. I personally love when people criticize my work, because it gives me an opportunity to get better. I don't, however, like when people just say something negative with no why and no how to fix it. That and when I get nothing but criticism. ^^;; I usually balance out the criticism I give by moderating how much I critique and making sure to start off with what I think is good about the piece.

3. Does it bother you when artists doesn't respond to your comments, even when you're a zealous fan of their work?
...Can't say I've really been in that sort of situation. But the way I tend to see situations like that is that I don't really have the right to get mad about it. ^^;; They're much better than I am and more busy, so it's kinda like expecting a celeberty to respond to your fan mail. So long as they read what I've said, I'm content.

4. Do you ever assume an artist is arrogant/uppity? Is it fair/unfair to assume something like this at face value?
If they say things that come across that way, then I'll probably assume their arrogant. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, since I've got a good friend who comes across that way till you realize she's a tsundere[heavy on the tsun], but I'm not going to accept that type of behavior. I think being arrogant is the sign of a crappy artist, since if the artist themselves can't accept their mistakes then their art will never improve. Part of being an artist is allowing other artists you respect to help you mold you artwork through critique into something more amazing than before. Or at least that's what I think...

5. Have you ever had an online fight? (It happens.) How do you feel about it now? How important is it to get over differences and be professional/civil to one another and how do you achieve this understanding?
T^T One too many, but thankfully none here. I think it's probably because a lot of people think I'm just some form of raving asshole [pardon the language] or some form of punching bag. I've honest to goodness had a few cases where the person who was mad at me only picked a fight with me because they were having a bad day IRL. And they honest thought that was a valid excuse. Life has dealt me a sour hand, but I NEVER make my personal problems other people's problems. They weren't the one's who wronged me, so I've no right to wrong them. So it makes me really made when people start fights with me because they had a bad day. It's not like I had any part in making it bad, and it's not like they even gave me a chance to make them feel better. And I try not to take the bait but I do have a fierce temper, 'specially when they start insulting my writing even when they haven't read anything but RP posts. That's about the only thing I'm good at and take pride in, so it really hurts when people just randomly insult my work without reading it... It still makes me sad thinking about online fights I've had in the past, cuz it kinda of ruins the whole community for me. ^^;; I just feel like a jerk making such a big scene and then acting like everything is normal. Personally, I thinks it's very very VERY important to be civil over the internet. Since there isn't any really way to properly convey emotions over the internet, I think it's always best to assume that the person on the other end of the screen is trying to convey positive emotions. They might really be trying to troll, but you'll run into a lot more positive people so dealing with other people in a friendly, respectful manner is the best way to keep things civil. And if you think they've said something insensitive, just ask; that puts a stop to a LOT of misunderstandings. But pro-tip when dealing with me: I don't ever say something intending to be a jerk, or insensitive, or passive aggressive. I've probably been misunderstood, or have misunderstood something so don't be afraid to ask me exactly what I meant. ^^;;

[...This whole thing sounds like I've got a terrible self image. @.@ I'm not a negative nancey, I swear! Drawing just isn't my forte', merely something I wish was my forte'; I realize I don't suck at everything. >.<]
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:icondarjeelingplumtea:
DarjeelingPlumTea Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
** end up mentioning that it isn't something I'm particularly satisfied with. **

I used to do that too. But it struck me one day that by saying something negative in response to a complement it's like telling them they have bad taste ;-) That helped me to stop doing that!
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:iconknight-dawn:
Knight-Dawn Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Student General Artist
1. That's one of the things I love about the Japanese, they tend to be pretty humble most of the time. I agree, though, somehow it makes a great artist even greater in my eyes when they respond in such a way. It means they're still reaching higher, yet are still humble about how far they've come. It's a journey, truly, and the only real difference between an amateur and a pro is the distance traveled and effort put in--with as much time and sincere effort, that amateur will have become a pro as well... even if they still don't see themselves as one.^^
2. Yes, I agree with this as well. It's always up to the artist how they take crit--if the person says they hate something the artist personally loves about their work, they don't HAVE to change it. However, if anyone wants to become better they have to be able to learn from critique.^^
3. Exactly. :D It amazes me every time I actually get a response from a really popular artist, because I know they must get an ocean of notes and messages... So it doesn't bother me to not get a response.^^;
4. It is usually pretty easy to tell...^^; But arrogance isn't always bad, really--Though, as I've said, I find humility to be much greater.
5. I hate misunderstandings. T.T They're the cause of way to many arguments... ^^;
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:iconloomcomics:
LOOMcomics Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
Don't feel like an awkward newb. We're all newbs, really.

I like a lot of what you say > The way I see the difference is that if you say something negative about a piece, you should give a solid 'why' or 'how [to fix it]' to back up your statement. Statements like "that sucks" or "it's just crappy" or "how is that real art work?" don't really have a place in any community and are nothing but trolling. But something like "I don't like how you drew the eyes; they should be more like blah blah blah" I think is fair game.

I think that's it in a nutshell. That's also how I was taught to give criticism. And when I don't have a suggestion on how to change, I say so. Like, "I can't put my finger on what would make that jive for me, but it might be worth exploring more options or thumbnailing some more." Likewise, if I have multiple suggestions, I make them. "Here are some ideas." I consider suggestions more like mental thumbnails and idea sharing. I've come across a lot of people who will shout, "No! Don't give them the answers! Make them figure it out themselves!" << These people are usually ignorant and the ones with fewest ideas, I've found. Someone once told me to listen "for the great critics and learn to dismiss the babble of the mediocre." I think when people take the time to be in-depth, it's a sign that they're putting some thought in, and I like that!
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:icondarjeelingplumtea:
DarjeelingPlumTea Featured By Owner Feb 17, 2012  Hobbyist Digital Artist
** How to take a compliment? What kinds of responses are best? Is there a delicate balance **

I think the hard part of compliments is that artists tend to focus on what they want to improve on. Once you've gotten good at something it becomes "normal", "right", "the way it's supposed to look." So it's harder to see the right stuff amidst all the stuff you're still trying to get better at. I've found it's helpful when responding to compliments to keep in mind the artists I like who aren't masterful yet but have aspects of what they're doing that I really like, like motion or color or cool hair :-)

** What is the difference between real crit and trolling? Should there be a line? How should it be dealt with? How do YOU deal with it? **

Real criticism is about the artist and giving them information they might find useful to improve something it looks like they're struggling with.

Trolling is about control. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt and see all behavior as some form of communication. Trolls are communicating something very sad and dark about what their real life is doing to them. BUT they aren't helping themselves and are hurting others in the process so they need blocked in whatever ways are possible.

** Does it bother you when artists doesn't respond to your comments, even when you're a zealous fan of their work? **

Not at all. My appreciation should be about them, not about me.

Though it bothers me when I can't figure out how to respond to a comment made to me! :-O Which makes me appreciate even more when an artist replies to me!

** Do you ever assume an artist is arrogant/uppity? Is it fair/unfair to assume something like this at face value? **

Yes and yes ;-)

I know how hard it is to hear how your own written words may be sounding to someone else. The voice and tone in your head doesn't get transferred with the words! But I've found it better to ignore or skim the writings of artists whose voices I can't hear as other than arrogant. Life is full of enough irritations that are beyond control so better to cut out the ones you can control :-)

** Have you ever had an online fight? (It happens.) How do you feel about it now? How important is it to get over differences and be professional/civil to one another and how do you achieve this understanding? **

People who resort to personal attacks aren't worth arguing with. Their goal isn't understanding but control and "winning" at the game only they are playing.

But for those who are trying to be thoughtful, it helps to dig into what they're saying to understand why they believe what they do rather than focusing on getting them to understand what I believe. No matter how certain I am that cats are superior to dogs, I'm not going to get my points across to a dog lover unless I understand what it is they love about dogs :-) Then I can use that as a basis for what I'm trying to say.
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:iconloomcomics:
LOOMcomics Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
Trolls are communicating something very sad and dark about what their real life is doing to them. >> I feel like there's some truth to that, from a personal viewpoint. I know I get snipey when things are going on in real life. It's easy to see how that might translate online. Also, I've seen many unproductive trolls. After all, non-trolls are busy creating!

Yeah, I too fall under the: "Hooow....should I respond..." category a lot.

True. I agree with what you say about tone. It's better just to cut that kind of fat away from life if you hear it/see it.

Yeah, "winning." I too have that tendency, so my solution was to remove crits from being given publicly. Now I only do it privately. I've noticed it helps me to be be rational, thoughtful, personable, and more honest. I know the solution is different for everyone, though.
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:iconknight-dawn:
Knight-Dawn Featured By Owner Feb 17, 2012  Student General Artist
Oh, this is cool. :) Let me see...
1. It entirely depends on the compliment, but... I can be pretty self critical of my own work, so getting compliments makes me feel better and help me be aware that I am getting better at my work. I usually just thank the person for the kind comment. :) From the perspective of a commenter, when I compliment an amazing piece of art and get feedback from the artist that sounds really humble despite the quality of the work, that always makes me smile too. The artists that keep striving higher all the time are the ones I have the most respect for.
2. There is a line between the two, namely... Trolling is done with the intent to hurt the artist or make them angry and get a response. Criticism, even when very harsh, is done with the intent to help the artist become better. If an artist can't take criticism, then they might never notice the things they're doing wrong and would never get any better. That aside, it can be hard to tell the difference sometimes. Either way, when I get a critical comment I think it over and try to work with it and improve. Step by step, that's how I hope to become better.
3. It depends. Some of the artists on here are very popular (and many of them deserve it entirely) so I understand that they may not be able to respond to every comment thrown their way. :) However, to actually get a response from a very popular artist always makes my day. :D
4. I don't think it's truly fair, but it is usually pretty easy to tell whether an artist is humble or arrogant based on what they say in their notes and in response to comments. However, from what I've seen there are a lot of very amazing, truly humble artists on here. In my opinion, that is the best combination of traits in a person... Especially when they're also motivated to keep reaching higher no matter how high they are already.
5. I honestly don't think I have yet... I tend to avoid confrontations when possible, so when a conversation starts down that path I either change the topic or end the discussion.^^;
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:iconloomcomics:
LOOMcomics Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
I think compliments do have their place. With comics especially it can be important to encourage, because it takes a lot of stamina and buildup to keep going. So I never mind encouraging comics. Illustrations can be more self-contained. That's not to say I'm anti-crit though. While criticism can be taken as hurtful and demoralizing, it can also be viewed in a positive way. I like artists that are humble too, and some that are just so cool and willing to share their feelings on different matters. I love when I come across really human people, I guess you could say.
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:iconknight-dawn:
Knight-Dawn Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Student General Artist
Oh yeah. Comics are hard and time consuming.^^; I'm the kind of person who ties everything together, though, so a lot of my illustrations go with comics and stories I'm working on... :D
I think it's important to let the person know you mean well when you're giving them feedback. Some artists STILL take it hard, but most of them will at least be polite if the person says that they're just trying to help.
And yes, finding really kind and human people on the internet can be hard--it's easy to come across as someone we aren't, so finding someone who is genuine isn't always easy.^^
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:iconloomcomics:
LOOMcomics Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
Me, too. ^^; I find that when I do illustrate, it ties to comics a lot. But still, when someone crits one page or one piece, it is still a little different from an entire body of work, perhaps.

And yes! I think so! Interestingly, one of the best things I've found to do (IRL) is to simply introduce myself. "Good morning, my name is Taylor and.." or for online, "Hello, Knight! I hope you're doing well. Congrats on completing this work. I really like... On the other hand, tI feel like their are a couple of things...etc"

And you're right. Sometimes, art just hurts. And people will hurt no matter what you say. But I think that well-worded critiques, in my experience, even if I go away and sulk at first, I can come back to and find new strength and meaning form them. Bad critiques just lie there and rot.

When you draw or write, so much of yourself goes in and you find yourself quite naked. I talked to a writer the other day at the library (he was an older gent) and he said to me, "One of the bravest thing you can do it write. Your soul becomes a slab of red meat for anyone to tear into." I think art can be that, too, and it's something we all have to learn to remember about each other. ^^
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:iconknight-dawn:
Knight-Dawn Featured By Owner Feb 21, 2012  Student General Artist
Yeah, that's true.^^ What they say for one part may not apply to the whole story. Like... "Oh, the perspective in panel three is a little off," would only apply to that one part, not any other.^^
The crits that start with the postive are really nice, because they do uplift the artist a little even though they also are going to tear the work apart, XD.^^;
My philosophy exactly. Even if a critique makes me hurt a little, I'll remember it the next time I'm working and will likely pay extra attention to the parts I need to fix.
And I agree, it takes a lot to put yourself out there with art and writing... And you still worry about your creations. They really do end up feeling like children. You want them to succeed, but once they're out there it's no longer really up to you. XD.
Putting that much effort and love into my work is exactly the reason I wish people would take art and artists a little more seriously. People still give me funny looks sometimes when I tell them it's my dream to become a comics artist. :/ You shouldn't do that in regards to someone's dream--especially not when it's such a rare thing lately for someone my age to even HAVE such a strong dream for the future...^^;
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:iconpilee:
pilee Featured By Owner Feb 17, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
About inernet figting. I love arguments but the other party starts treating me like I'm satan himself after a while I get the "I'm not listening to anything you say because you're stupid and wrong" treatment.

Funny thing is that that's what they think I'm trying to prove about them. . .but I really just want to present my opinion.

In the end i only get accused for being a preacher of my own ideals and that I'm trying to convert them to it. I'm so tired of talking to people at all over the internet.
I't nearly impossible to discuss moral issues and opinions without being declaired stupid and mean. *sigh*
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:iconloomcomics:
LOOMcomics Featured By Owner Feb 17, 2012  Professional Interface Designer
Morals, religions, and politics are notoriously touchy, yes. ^^;
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:iconpilee:
pilee Featured By Owner Feb 19, 2012  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I find that kinda sad.
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:iconmashmellow-muffin:
Mashmellow-Muffin Featured By Owner Feb 16, 2012  Hobbyist Artist
Oh!~ This seems fun~ :3 *fails at visiting the forum only a lot, sorrys* xD;; I'm numbing mine cause I'm too lazy to do anything fancy.~~

1> > I don’t really know how to deal with compliments. I’m super bad when it comes to replying all together. But if I know the person that left the comment or compliment irl I find myself commenting faster at them with a silly reply back. There’s no real balance or best way to reply other then saying thank you in a timely fashion to those kinds of comments.

2>> The different between for reals crit and trolling is that trolling dose nothing to help and are super rude. There’s always a line for this. To deal with it is with kindness and then to ignore it. Or heck just ignore it. As for me, I’m a dork and I like to play out the trolls until I get board.~ Then I’ll ignore them. :3

3>> It doesn’t bother me at all if other ppl don’t reply back to me or my comments. I understand ppl have lives. I’d rather them be making more pages anyways then to talk to me. XD;

4>> Not really. I like to try and think everyone is humble for the most part. Though I have to say some ppl when they have more then 600 fans and sell their manga for 20 bucks for 123 pages (then complain in their journal that it’s the print job sucks before selling) for the sheer fact they know their fans would buy it…… I gotta wonder if they are milking their fans. Stuff like that bothers me. Also ppl telling me to read their comic in a matter that is rude..… If I wanted to read their comic I would have done so a long time ago. Other then that, I just get intimidated by ppl with large fanbases. I’m not worthy! X___x/

5>> I had a “fight” online with another comic maker person. I feel he is in denial since he ran away not wanting to mend things since we see things differently. And he was the one all about “friendship” too. Sigh. You make one comment you think might help him with sales and they get all huffy. I still say talking things out is best until you come to a conclusion then forgive each other or something. Ya know, It’s not good to stay mad or in fight mood at ppl all the time I’d like to think. ^_^
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